Last year while theorycrafting for the tournament I came up with what I thought was a really good setup. It could realistically take on pretty much anything that it was likely to face. For last tourney Sleipnirs and Tengus where the FOTM. Logistics was also king. ECM e-war was also very popular. The following setup was designed to competely demolish any concievable threat. Although low on DPS, it could tank like a son-of-a-bitch and kill anything that comes near one of its ships.What makes this setup so great is that it can easily afford the loss of one or even two ships, and still be viable. It also has specific counters built into it against likely enemy setups.
Now that my alliance is out :( I have decided to post it in the hopes that someone will try and use it. I would love to see this setup used. I will pay 200 million ISK to the first team to field this setup in hopes that this will encourage someone to give it a try.
This is the setup:
3x Curse
2x Geddon
1x Guardian
1x Rapier
DPS is kindof low topping out at 2450 but through the use of fast Valkary IIs and scorch it is actually quite effective at a wide range. Using Hammerhead II and MF ammo significantly increases the DPS in case of a slug match.
The idea is to use the curses to make any turrent ships on the field more or less useless, especially at range. They will be forced to move in close where they will get webbed and painted by the Rapier, and neuted by the Curses. Even in close range the numberous tracking disruptors means that the enemy will have a hard time hitting anything. Meanwhile the 2 tracking enhanced Pulse Geddons will be laying on the hurt at a variety of ranges. A maxed out Guardian is fed cap from teh geddons and provided with 10 large amour logistics drones so it can tank very well.
Against a minmattar setup (see team minmattar) this setup will absolutly make the enemy ships useless. Two, if not three, bonused tracking disruptors will both kill the range and the tracking of the Sleipnirs guns.
Against a ECM fleet this setup will do well because the Ammar is so
underused in the tourney there will probably not be any racial ECM to
deal with. This combined with heavy use of ECCM modules and inherently high sensor strenghts of the Recons The Huginn is vulnerable but it does have a pretty high base
resist and a ECM fleet is not what it is there for.
Against a missile spam fleet there are issues for the Curses, That is
why they have an extra kinetic hardner to give the more tank against
Caldari. That combined with the smaller sig radius and a AB fit should
keep them survivable.
[Armageddon, (Modified) Pulse Lasers Rule Energy TX]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x5
DPS:739
The geddon represents both powerful DPS as well as a source of power for guardian/curses. Using scortch the lasers have a 53 km optimal and do 500 DPS per ship. Using MF for close range ups the DPS to 739, and still has a optimal of 18 km. It also can place 5 heavy armour drones on the logistics ships each, giving the logistics ship a massive repair amount per 5 seconds. In case the logistics goes down these drones can be used for logistics purposes as well providing some backup. The Large power projector and the cap booster means that this ship can keep logistics humming.
[Curse, pimped w plate MWD]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Nosferatu II
Drone Link Augmentor I
Medium Egress Port Maximizer I
Medium Ionic Field Projector I
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Valkyrie II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
The curses are the key to this setup. With three bonused TD each for a total of 9 bonused TD, any turret setup is going to be having a lot of difficulty. However a curse is not a one trick pony. The neuts can easily place enormous cap pressure on the opposing team. Fit with a MWD this ship can easily catch the ubiquitous AB scimitar and neutralize it. The sensor dampner provides a needed balance to the e-war. Three of these in total can put an enemy tengu out of the fight, or force a logistics ship to stay close. At the same time the high native sensor strength combined with a very long 200km targeting range makes this ship hard to affect by e-war be it ECM or sensor dampers.
The last trick the curse has is it's large drone bay. 15 bonused medium drones total is nothing to laugh at.
[Rapier, Webbing Armour tank w SB]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Medium Graviton Smartbomb II
Medium Graviton Smartbomb II
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Valkyrie II x3
Warrior II x2
The Rapier closes the circle on the 40 km kill zone of this setup. By stopping the enemy cold, and blooming its sig radius, this ship allows the full brunt of hell to be unleashed on the enemy. Pity the poor sleipnirs trying to get within 2x falloff. The rapier also provides smartbombs to clear enemy drones
[Guardian, 6 large repper.. need energy tx]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Warrior II x5
Edit : Needs 3% pg implant
The guardian provides a massive active tank for the team. With a full 6x large armour reppers this setup should be able to keep anyone up who is under assault. This ship provides 2-3x the repping ability of most medium repper setups. At the same time the 10x heavy logistics drones from will keep the guardian up. It is also dependent on either geddon being in range to provide cap.
Here is the general plan for using this setup...
Basically we try to control the centre of the field. Rapier, BS,
Guardians and one curse warp to 30, other curse warp to 0 and 50km. At
the start of the match their are three main priorities.
1. Protect Guardian. 10 x Heavy armour
drones are placed on it and the curse and rapier ensure that anything
near it is TD, painted, webbed, neuted and pounded upon with BS lasers.
Drones get smart bombed. The Energy tx geddon provides cap for the
guardian to rep.
2. Go after enemy logistics. We watch to
see if the enemy logistics is moving faster then our curses (ie mwd or
ab fit). If our curse is faster the the closest curse heads after it. If
our curse can go faster then we ignore their logistics as far as damage
is concerned. When it is neuted it will no longer be a threat. If their
logistics is faster then we make it the primary for all large dps (15
med drones + BS lasers). and the sensor damps go on their logistics forcing into range.
Consider killing armour repping drones first.
3. Kill their DPS! TDs get placed on all
turrent ships in priority order. SD gets placed on one missile spamming
ship forcing it to sit out the fight or come in death range. In most
cases we should get 2 if not three TD on each enemy ship. Destroyers and
other small ships will be dealt with by the rapier and Guardian drones.
7 warrior 2 + 3 valkaries go after sabres and thrashers and slower
frigates. Medium drones and lasers go after cruiser + sized primaries.
FCs call on wether to add in 5 or more drones from curse to the anti
small ship contingent (like if they have 5 bombers). Use Valkary II
against fast cruisers (vagas, cynabals) and Hammerhead II against slower
ships (Sleipnirs, Tengus etc).
Depending on what you are up against here is the specific plan
Against Minmattar Rush team:
Easy. Basically the TD make the Macharials and Sleipnirs short range ships with worse than BS level tracking. Anything that comes near us gets neuted, webbed and killed. In the end the Minmattar Rush team either be picked appart one at a time or die en-mass in a blaze of pointless glory.
Macharial w 3 TD (2 range 1 track)- 1.7km + 20km falloff ... tracking 0.02 (with barrage)
Macharial w 3 TD (2 range 1 track)- 0.8km + 14km falloff ... tracking 0.03 (with RFEMP
Sleipnir w 3 TD (2 range 1 track) - 0.7km + 6.9km falloff ... tracking 0.04 (with barrage)
Sleipnir w 3 TD (2 range 1 track) - 0.3km + 4.6km falloff ... tracking 0.06 (with RFEMP
Compare this to the two geddons which have :
Geddon - 18km + 12 km falloff tracking 0.07 (with multi)
Geddon - 53km + 12 km falloff tracking 0.05 (with scorch)
Remember that the Minmatter rush team will webbed and/or neuted during any actual rush so the ability to close to very short range will be limited.
As for the small ships we all know that small ships (dramiel and sabre) fear curses bigtime. They might be impossible to catch but if they come within 40 km our this fleet they will die.
Against HSLR Kiters like Tengus
With the empasis on missile damage this is probably one of the most effective teams to use against this setup. That is why this setup has extra kinetic resists so that Caldari missile bonuses are largely wasted. Yes they may use off-race missiles but not at the start. As a result the missiles do not have enough damage to take down any of this anit-minnie setup with the possible exception of the Huginn. Having said that macharial is made useless due to the tracking disruption. The Tengus/scimatar can be caught by the curses (albiet slowly) and killed by drones (15 bonused hammerhead II = 1000dps) plus whatever the slower geddons can put on them with scortch (65km range).
A keres or other sensor dampers are a threat with their sensor damping however with a 203km lock range on the curses this is largely mitigated. If within 45 km range 2 bonus sensor dampers drop lock range on the curse down to 53 km. Less effective into falloff to avoid death by 15 bonused warrior II.
Against An Unbreakable Tank team
The curses really shine here. With more range on the cap drain then the Bhaalgorn and more range on webs with the Huginn, death comes quickly. Again the Bhaalgorn wont be able to hit the side of the barn thanks to massive track disruption. The neuts will kill all of its active shield tank. The Basilisk will also have no cap to do any repping. Meanwhile the ships will die to the combined 3000+ dps from our fleet.
Against ZOOM ZOOM (Vagas, Cynabals)
Tracks really kill this team as well. The Cynabals and Vegas just can't land any shots at anything like a safe range/speed. If they try to get close enough they will be 1. neueted, 2. webbed 3. TD so still not hitting anything and 4. die. Theoretically they can fly around forever and avoid damage (one mistake = death) but the scimatar and jag will go down hard.
Against T3 Heavy Ewar
Sorry .... off-racial jammers don't work too well against recons :(. The tengus are slow and easy to hunt down and kill. The ECM might land a hit or two against the BS but overall, not very effective since it will be off-racial. 3 curses win vs one curse in the neuting war so the curse will die alone as well. The sensor dampers on the curse will make sure that scimatar has to keep close if it wants to be effective and can be easily caught. The loki and the ferox will be TD to death so none of their guns will work. Yes the T3 ships have huge tanks but sustained fire will kill them, especially when invul fields fail due to no cap.
Against BS Heavy
4 cap hungry turrent BS = flying bricks when 3 curses are on the field. It will take a while that is for sure but there is little doubt here. Even if they time their cap cycles right they will each have at least 2 TD on them so our BS can keep at range and kill them at our pleasure. Ishkur will be dealt with densor dampers + drones. Onieros will be caught, neuted to prevented from interfering and then killed.
I can tell you put a lot of thought into this setup, and it shows. It's fairly solid but unfortunately it does have a few holes you haven't addressed.
ReplyDelete1. a Bomber centric setup would go a long way to defeating this setup, see the setups of Genos or Rote Kapelle in the first round of last year, or the Genos setup of the first few rounds from last year. Your Geddons, in fact, all your ships have pretty low overall EHP, large maint drones would likely get removed when bombs dropped, speed would mostly allow the bombers to kite damage coming in from the geddons while they lasted, if they could get a lock, and the curses poor DPS wouldn't help.
2. There are only 7 ships in your setup, barring a few setups, setups of under at least 8 ships all failed in the tourney, why? It's because of the opposing EW, less hostile ships on the field gives the EW that is out there ample time to focus on the 7 ships that are there. Once your BS are damped, out, the only DPS you can rely on is if the other team either A, closes inside webs/engagement range, or B, you web something and kill them in short order.
The Curse is a very powerful ship, especially an Armor tanked one, in the AT format, but I think 3 is just overdoing it a bit much, if you dropped to 2 curses from three, you retain much of the same utility, but give yourself enough free points to add more ships and DPS to your fleet by adding in a few bombers. I think Rote Kapelle had two curses and my Bhaalgorn last years AT against AAA, for comparison. I know we fielded at least one Curse. In any case, cap injectors can be used to counter the cap drain of a curse, especially on BS sized ships.
Just a FYI, you slipped a few times and said Huginn instead of Rapier :)
The guardian fit needs some work, you're going to cap out quickly or have to stay inside of 8km from the BS to keep cap transfers up, can be very prone to counter-neuting of your supporting ships to cripple your cap circle. And the Geddon's have marginally more EHP than a armor BC, along with less DPS than some gank fit Brutix. Try a more traditional setup like below.
[Armageddon, Geddon]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Tracking Enhancer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x5
Cap stability it still an issue, but you get 40k EHP more, same range and identical if not more DPS out of the Geddons.
All together a strong setup, ship wise, if not for it's weakness against damp/missile or damp/bomber teams, or Drones. Without any static drone defense you'd be at the mercy of swarms of EC drones teams like to bring in the 10v10 phase, or unable to disrupt the rep drone swarms.
Thanks Logan... good comments.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Bombers there is a reason this setup has ships warping to 0, 30 and 50 km. I suspect a bomber setup could quickly dispatch the first curse, but once that is gone the swarm of Warrior II drones will quite quickly take out the bombers. To actually launch a bomb requires getting very close to if not into the 'kill zone'.
obviously more ships is more efficient. However this setup is inherently heavy on the e-war front itself. High sensor strengths for all ships should mitage all but the strongest, luckyest ecm and long lock ranges should mitigate sensor damping. There is a reason for a targetting range rig on the curse and it is to resist damping.
At one point this setup used Huginn so that is why I sometimes sound confused. The rapier has a higher potential armour tank so that is what is used.
The guardian should be fine with the cap since it can draw from either of the geddons. These ships stay pretty still.
As for enemy neuts ... the curses provide defence against that. This plus the redundancy of two energy tx geddons.
The high kinetic resistances is to significantly reduce the effect of enemy missile teams (tengus, drakes). This setup should be able to tank 3x tengus so I think this will be enough. They can run but with the curses running around one mistake for them and they are dead.
The bombers would only be threatened by the warriors if they catch up to the bombers. Also warp ins aren't exactly a science, since there are three beacons each team can warp in from, sometimes, rarely, you end up lined up directly across from the other team, much more commonly you end up close to or next to the enemy. Your ship's AB speeds means you aren't going to catch a MWD fit team very quickly, even with webs figured into it. Even with all 6 guardian reps, overheated, on the geddon's they only rep 1200ish DPS, 6 bombers do 1500 DPS, with torps.
ReplyDeleteLet's say you face off against the worst thing you can fight, 3 Tengu's, a Logi,Vulture and 4 bombers, and some kind of dessy, prolly corm (I think that's 100 points),
The way we were fitting out Tengu's in practices, overheated they had around 200k EHP, without Vulture links, so even more after harmonizing, Scimi or Basilisk, 2 Nemesis and 2 manticores, thats around 3k DPS in optimal circumstances. Without even firing a single shot, your team is down 9 slots of uselessness, TD's don't help obviously, and you have a sum total of what 3 damps? the bombers will be fielding between 1-2 damps each, let's call it two, so thats 8 damps on the field at match start. That team can come in at 0, bombers at range, and even if they teams warp in ideally, where you are spread as you propose, the Tengu team will (unfortunately because I hate Tengu's ability to do this), but they'll wipe the floor, 2 damps on your Logi, 6 spread over the rest of your fleet, their Tengu's will remove your Logi in short order, while the bombers either focus on the BS (if I was FC I'd do that) or the huginn to get the webs off the field. You just wouldn't have the DPS to get the Tengu's off the field before they killed your Logi, and started killing your BS/Curse.
That's the nightmare setup for you to face really, by the time the curse are left on the field, everything else is dead, and the Tengu's might be out of cap, but the DPS from the Curse won't be enough to dent their shields =( stupid Tengu's.
Confirming the obvious.... given any setup a counter setup can be created that is the perfect counter for it.
ReplyDeleteYeah, easy to counter a known setup. Tough to find a setup that is at least strong vs all counters. I'm just saying the geddon's need to be fit differently, likely also the Curse, 1- TD +1 damp at the very least.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, I'm worried this year will be a whole lot of Tengu teams (oh god I hope not, paint-dryingly boring!)
If a shortage of damps is that critical then I would probably recommend swaping a curse for a Lachesis and be done with it (eliminate the sd from the curse at the same time). A lach can have a mwd and 6 bonused sensor dampers. Enough to really mess with the enemy. Problem with it is though that it does not have the same drone capability or neut capability of the curse so there is a non-insignificant hit to the dps.
ReplyDelete